emma
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Post by emma on Jan 4, 2007 14:42:28 GMT -5
The following is an essay by Polly Young-Eisendrath about transference love. I have found this to be an excrutiating obstacle to moving forward in therapy. It seems that most people in therapy go through this, but I have a feeling that people with AD get really stuck. I actually found this to be helpful (once I stopped hyterically crying ) It is very long and has about a 4 page intro. But if you are in therapy and can't accept the analytical "frame" - really love your therapist but can't bare the "boundaries", project like mad, act out, test, test, test, yet thru it all feel a genuine connection and belonging, it's worth your time. Note to Ghost - It quotes Sylvia Plath and it made me laugh and cry. Hope this works - this is the article: www.jungseattle.org/jpa/eisenpres.pdfThis is the site that of the organization that ran the workshop it was presented at: jungseattle.org/jpa/events/eventChrono.html
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Post by ghost on Jan 4, 2007 18:11:08 GMT -5
great links, em.. i read the entire article.. i like the plath quote, of course.. and also the mention of alice miller.. i recommend her book 'the drama of the gifted child'.. one of my therapists, 'dr steve', was a jungian.. i'm afraid i lost my 'hope for renewal' in therapy and am in the 'bitter disappointment/hate' category.. but i have hope despite what therapy has 'taught' me.. because i've had to understand a very real definition of love in my life.. it's human and defective.. but transformative nevertheless.. of course feline love is absolute perfection! ghost
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emma
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Post by emma on Jan 4, 2007 19:46:41 GMT -5
Me too ghost. You and I zero in on the exact same thing (my hard copy is all underlines, circles and comments at that part!). But here is where I think we trap ourselves: The "bitter hatred" comes from a dissapointment that, according to the author, stems from disruption of the "containing-transcendent transference" - the thing you and I use to prove that everything else is a lie. But I suspect that it is the second form of transference the "iconic-projective transference" that sabotages the containing-transcendent transference. I think we project directly onto the first "shell" in the transference such that the "mystique" becomes our "proof" that everything is a lie. We make up our minds that the "distance" between the therapist and us consitutes the lie. Yet I am comming to realize that the "distance" is not distance, but more like "space" and that is the place where we get to be together - all the way. All the way.
For the first time I can understand the point that there needs to be a "theoretical space" where we can act out our emotions. Somewhere where we can show the way we hurt and where someone else can actually see what we CANNOT see. Our projections are invisible to us - they are our REALITY. Only its not reality. Its desire and abondonment and fear and pain and blah, blah, blah... and we cannot see them.
Somehow, we must sense that respecting the space sabotages our desire, so we reject the "analyitical frame". And you and I do it very well. We could argue til the cows come home. But I think if you leave that "first shell" alone for a moment and consider the next two, more things fall into place.
We project. You must agree with me there? Well, at least I know that I project! And I do not know at this point where my projections end and K begins. That is a fact. I also cannot disagree with the kinship thing. I know the feeling of "belonging" with her. K has never supposed to know anything more than I do. And we have had our battles where neither has been afraid of the other and we have gone to war and we come out together with a feeling of having gone far from each other only to come back closer. That is the kinship thing and I cannot deny it has happened.
So that brings me back to the only weak link: the containing-transcendent transference. The one part that denies me my desire. So I go to war against it. Even though I don't think there is any relationship outside of this one where all of the things that go on between us COULD go on. I would not reveal myself to her this way if she were my mother. I dream I would, but when I really think about it, I wouldn't. So maybe I am closer to her than I would be if she were my mother. Maybe she can tolerate me better than if she were my mother.
Ghost, I did not see her for a month and now I have a couple times. We have had the most painful meetings we have ever had in our 2 years together, but somehow, going thru this essay, among other things, I think I would be a ffuucckkiinngg hard core liar if I said she did not love me. Her words and my experience with her, my perception, my intuitinon, tell me that either she is either horribly evil or she is honest.
I'm not even sure if I made sense. If I have not, then consider this a work in progress and eventually, hopefully sooner than later, I will make sense. Right now maybe I have just a thread of light I am chasing.
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Post by ghost on Jan 5, 2007 13:39:27 GMT -5
just so you know, my objective view on your therapy with k as described by you, highs & lows intact, seems like the real deal, and that she is truly trying to help.. and you are lucky.. i know i project.. but i'm afraid even 6 years with licia and i did not crack and reveal anything deeply personal.. and she only seemed to go farther away the whole time.. like she thought she knew so she didn't really want to ask me things.. i don't know.. but i have to say it was a failed therapy.. leaving me in a place where i was at the point of complete self-destruction.. like the article explained.. and it was my own sense and need for survival for my son and my kitties (some wouldn't understand this but they are my 'secure base') that gave me the insight that i had to get away to survive it all.. and i did. i got stronger only after therapy was behind me.. and i have to credit licia with half of that failed relationship.. the therapeutic environment was not achieved.. i could not trust her for good reasons.. maybe i can see this because i don't have the same situation you do in one way.. i don't give the therapist a hard time at all.. i go out of my way to not do so.. and in not standing up and being honest as you were we just never went anywhere.. i couldn't risk her hating me.. and i felt like she didn't like me or care no matter what i did anyway, so.. she never really knew me, although she thought she did.. i just left it alone.. to your continued success.. here's a mr t for your therapy mojo
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emma
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Post by emma on Jan 6, 2007 10:28:43 GMT -5
I'm back to not liking Licia again. You blame her for only half? I blame her for more. How could she not know there was something deeper going on? She does not get the luxury to be too chicken to find out. She was taking up your time, money and worst of all your heart. I can imagine how difficult it must have been to break away after so many years. Or maybe I can't - its an unfathomable pain. I completely understand staying and being "good" so that she will like you. I want that so much too. But I feel so much pain and rage believing that I am not liked (loved) that I cannot control it and out it comes right in her face. That's how it gets out with me. Believe me, I am not past the whole "you don't care about me, I am nothing" phase. I hate that Licia gets to walk away without so much as a scratch and all the richer. I wish you would send her your post above - and more. She should at least be made to feel guilty. She should have tried to break thru and she should have known. I know it is not just their job, but still. I have fooled K plenty and she has gone along many times fat, dumb and happy. Even this last go around. She said to me that I was getting better. It made me so mad. I was ACTING better, but I was not better. So I started acting out really badly before this "break". I went in drunk and got angry and said really nasty sshhiitt. She reacted. I decided she ffuucckkiinngg hated me and disappeared. When I went back we were still fighting and I felt to the core of my being that I lost her - our connection was gone. That broke me. And I think that I need to "break". I finally told her something I have kept secret for 2 years and I think it really hurt her to know I had a secret, but it also was an "Ah ha" moment. Now I feel like after 2 years, I have arrived battered and bloody to the starting line. And maybe I will just backslide again, as usual. This turned out much longer than I intended. Guess I needed to tell someone what happened. I wish you would try again to find someone. I know it is difficult not only to pay someone, but to find the right person. Still, I wish you would try again. I so want to come on here one day to read that you spilled your guts to someone who is good and kind - someone who understands and appreciates your kitties too. If they can't do that, they're not right for you. It's a strange wish, since I have no evidence myself that therapy works. I don't know. I do now believe that your leaving Licia was the right thing to do. You had to and I am sorry for that. It took guts and strength to survive it. I hope I did not offend you with that "projection" comment. I just assume that everyone projects and people with AD probably more so. Alright. It really is time to shut up!
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emma
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Post by emma on Jan 6, 2007 10:29:14 GMT -5
Oh! And thanks a lot for Mr. T!
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Post by ghost on Jan 6, 2007 16:31:25 GMT -5
em, of course i'm not offended 'cause i know i project my fears on everyone around me, most especially licia or whatever therapist i have seen in the past also.. i think whatever can be gotten out of therapy.. you will get it! because you fight! that is the best thing! more mr t's for you! i pity the fool that tries to put one over on you, chica!! and i'm curious what your secret was@! but i won't be too nosy.. something that is not licia's fault is that my emotions are in a kind of frozen slow motion.. i need the utmost patience for someone to slow wwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy down to allow me to answer any given question.. otherwise it just breezes past me and i'm forever disconnected from myself/feelings/others.. ug!! licia says she knows i trusted her as much as i could trust anyone.. but i know that's not true.. i tell strangers online more than i told her.. and if i told her that then it was a lie i musta thought i believed at the time..? i couldn't go to see her for the last 6 months of our therapy sober in the slightest.. once i tried 'cause i'd told her i'd been drinking and she of course said it wasn't a good idea.. but i only made half the drive there before i freaked out and ended up at the albertson's beside her office buying a bottle of smirnoff and getting a cup of ice from the starbuck's there.. slamming it back so fast that i had to think in those moments that maybe i really am an alcoholic..? i miss that medicine too much.. if i were back in that situation it'd be too much and i'd do it again even if it did stop my heart.. once i drink i no longer care about anything else.. truly. i feel no pain.. and i only thank god for the relief.. the thing is.. how can you not know someone is that trashed? or at least ask? i wouldn't have lied.. and the cutting was so bad.. but she only asked a couple times how i'd been doing with that.. for such a serious problem to be so invisible just killed me.. but i didn't want undue attention paid to it either, so i left that alone.. i got so used to being set up and told how 'safe' it would be for me to get angry, something she always encouraged with me since i bottle it up but only take it out on myself.. but then if i got angry at her i could feel the payback once it had a chance to set in.. i could feel the payback.. the cancelled appts. the punishment the next time.. and anything she ever said she'd do, she didn't do.. years ago i left her my film i made in '96 to watch.. i paid her for extra hours for her time.. she said she'd 'love to' see it.. but she never watched it.. that was brutal to me.. my art is me. i brought in bits of my art, i tried to open up a dialogue.. she complimented me which was embarrassing but not what i needed.. we never could talk about the content.. my art is where i've been able to express emotion and pain.. and we couldn't talk about it.. and it killed me every time i tried and failed.. and i beat the crap outta myself for every stupid time i tried.. it wasn't as if we didn't have all the paid time in the world, it was that she didn't have the inclination.. and i just got used to her word not meaning anything.. i'll help you find a therapist.. yeah, i've heard that before.. anything she ever said she'd do.. i just waited for the inevitable nothing.. so i learned that she truly could not be trusted.. i never even went into any of this stuff we now know to be ad.. and isn't that just like everything?!i secretly knew that no one wants to know they've come to represent something so important to you that you think about jumping off the railing every time you leave their office.. what a loser, huh? well, i've gone on and on.. sometimes i guess you probably think i'm more like you because i rant or sound angry.. yeah, i get pissed off.. i grumble and smoulder and just get sick.. it's obviously anger, but in person you'd never know it.. most people have trouble even hearing what i'm saying and tell me my voice is too soft.. i come across really different in typing/writing where i can speak and be heard.. guess that's why it's the only place i feel safe.. i feel present. i'd have heart failure before i could be as honest as you are with a therapist! but that's what it takes, you know? just risking as much as i did is what turned me into a ghost.. keep trying.. p.s. hm... she boxes.. but i just know you could kick her bbutttttttttockssssssssss!!!!!
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emma
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Post by emma on Jan 7, 2007 14:50:50 GMT -5
I'm sure she boxes like a girl. I could and should take her. God I am so upset by what happened. You never described your experience with Licia like this before. I hate her. I am going to respond in the order you wrote. I absolutely know what you mean about responding sslloooowwwwllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyy! There have been many times I have sat in silence with K for long, long, long periods of time without a word spoken between us. Sometimes I am angry and won't speak to her. Sometimes it just hurts too much and I can't form the words or I am searching for the words. Whatever the case, she just waits. Even now, I have to wait to get calm in the room at the beginning. One of our problems has been that it takes me so long to start that we are already at the end of the session when real convestation begins. So now, we do double sessions and that seems to be working much better. Still, I am very slow to answer. Sometimes it takes me so long, I forget what she even asked and I drift off to somewhere else. All this is OK with K. Was Licia not patient with you? She should have been - no matter how long it takes you to speak, that is just the way it is. What's the rush? And you, I am sure, are obviously shy. I am not obviously shy, but often become shy (and then aggressive, and then shy I hate Licia. Licia said she knew you trusted her as much as you could trust anyone? That sounds like a cop out to me. She should not have settled for that. You both should have been constantly working toward complete trust. Whether you got there ever was the ffuucckkiinngg point of the therapy, right? Isn't it? I ALMOST completely trust K - god knows I trust her a lot, but I still fear that what she tells me is not true - so I do not completely trust her and THAT is a HUGE part of what we work on. It's like Licia could not face the possibility that you did not trust her. Because maybe she saw that as a failure on her part and she was not brave enough to face it. That means that SHE is not done with HER therapy and should GO BACK and finish before she ffuucckkkss anyone else up more. K never knows when I am drunk. I always tell her after the fact. She also does not like to address that issue with me. That is a weird part of this. I think two things: maybe she thinks that by working on the other things, my drinking will "improve" or maybe she finds it hard to believe that I drink because nothing in my life really seems affected by it. I don't know, but I have a feeling its going to become a bigger issue. I have only gone in there buzzed not actually drunk. Still, you press a few buttons and the emotions take wierd turns even if you have only had like 2 drinks which is sorta what I've done. Its still a bad choice. Don't miss drinking ghost. Try and remeber what a drag it was. Believe me. It is a drag. How she blew off the cutting is beyond me. There is not such thing as "social cutting" like drinking. How could that not be a center piece of your discussions? Like, I would ask you every single time I saw you what the status was. It is a barometer of sorts. she was a CHICKEN!!!!!!!!!! Ghost I swear, she was just a really smart yet incompetent chicken! HOw that can be, I don't know, but I've seen it. Here is where I lost it last night reading your post...the part about telling you it was ok to be angry and then punishing you for it. OH MY GOD!!!!!!! NO! NO WAY! Cancelling appointments? Retaliating in some way? Oh, Ghost. That must have hurt so much. I can't imagine it. At least I would have had some satisfaction by ripping her ffuucckkkiiinnnggg head off before I jumped off a bridge. But still. And yet, this is not the worst. She ignored your art. Jesus. Why. You PAID her to watch your film? And then she DIDN'T? ? She rots. What she really is Ghost is mean. From what you said, I understand that she is really smart. So she would be able to get your art to one degree or another. Sshhiiittt, I get some of it. K got some of it in a flash. I showed her a couple things and right away she said to me "She's hurt Em. She's very hurt." Why wouldn't Licia just start right there? It is so easy to see some of the things in your work - I'm not saying that your stuff is simple - I just mean that you can see pain immediately. And you use symbols and allusions. Like in the Christmas story you did, nothing in any of the sets is accidental. Every single book and toy was deliberate. Anyway...back to Licia. I wonder if Licia was jealous, intimidated or just plain scared of you? I wonder. But if she was, she should have had to guts, no the decency to be honest with you. K forgets things too Ghost. But not things like "I'll help you find an new therapist". The therapist who dumped me in the middle of my suicidal crisis did THE SAME thing to me. She was immoral. She was cold and she was mean. I hope she gets hers. Licia hurt you ghost. It is one thing when you are afraid to participate in your own therapy. Lots of people are like that. In my way, I am too. I create diversions and road blocks and all kinds of problems right along with telling the truth once in a while. But Licia's avoidance and lack of courage and honesty was an abuse of you. She did you harm Ghost. She was more than incompetent. I think of incompetence as just a therapist who doesn't have the ability to help you. Licia did things to you. Either thru commission or omission, she DID things to you. DO NOT blame yourself for what happened in that "therapy". It's a ggoddaammnn wonder you survived it. I don't know if I would have. I really don't. I think if you tried again, you could only find someone better. I am sorry if my ranting about Licia hurts your feelings. I know you probably, despite everything, still have feelings for her. I understand that. Sigh. I probably would too. That is AD for ya. But I am angry at her, so I need to say rotten things about her. Let me also just say this: Well I have definitely won the weekend's "long winded award" and I could keep going too. I am positively torqued up! I hope my rant hasn't upset you. Ghost, there are lots of really good therapists out there. Nice, honest, committed people. Caring people. You deserve to have one.
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Post by ghost on Jan 7, 2007 15:17:40 GMT -5
i'm not upset.. i'm busting up.. it feels good to be validated.. even while i know the wish still lurks back there.. i still want her to turn out to be wonderful and help me... but.. alas.. it is not to be.. yeah, the art thing.. that killed me.. so i gave her my 'book' on a disc.. she sat there in her office surrounded by books telling me she's a 'slow reader'.. can't get any clearer a rejection than that.. but everytime i felt like i got the clue, she had this uncanny ability to snow me and draw me right back in.. my weakness.. maybe i should see an 'art therapist'? although i haven't even had any real drive to even paint since i left california.. i would still like to find help if it exists.. just understanding helps.. like being able to come here and talk, you know? but i don't seem to ever get over these bad therapy experiences.. she wasn't the first one i went to that did damage.. each therapist is only human and they make mistakes.. the hope is that their ability to help you outweighs the unavoidable damage done in the process i guess.. thanks for being on my side, em..
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Post by ghost on Jan 7, 2007 15:30:55 GMT -5
p.s. i had more than 2.. more like 10.. but no one has ever known when i drink unless they get close enough to detect the smell of liquor.. i've always been told that.. because it makes me actually comfortable and puts others at ease with me.. even bdhp 'liked me' that way & told me so.. believe me it was plenty.. how else could i walk in there and sit down and speak with any composure at all as i bled under my clothes..?
but then when i was drinking i never remembered much about my sessions..
part of the problem is just my inability to sit there uncomfortably sober in the quiet waiting to even feel present at all.. it was a psychologist who 'cured' me of that silence years ago.. because i was tooooo quiet and everyone thought so.. wish i could undo that little improvement..
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Post by ghost on Oct 3, 2007 11:23:13 GMT -5
reading lately about therapy i made what i thought was a very important realization so i thought i'd tuck it in here in the therapy topics.. a crucial aspect of deciding to go into therapy is the desire to change.. this may sound simple, but it's not.. i mean if you're unhappy you want that to change, but how far are you willing to change to achieve that? that's what therapy is really about.. willingness to change.. i'm not someone who wanted to change.. i went into therapy for the wrong reasons and that caused me a great deal of trouble.. not even knowing the term AD at the time, i just knew i was unhappy because something majorly important was missing from my life and always had been.. i wanted someone i could trust and talk to.. i wanted to figure out how to get what was missing or help letting it go if i just couldn't.. that never happened.. right away it was about taking meds (p.s. i suggest you also read the latest psychcentral newsletter in the info thread for more in this issue of overly focusing on meds..) i was up front the first day that i no longer wanted to take any more tranquilizers or antidepressant meds and honestly asked if that would be a problem or not.. well, i think i was misled.. it is a problem.. then it's all about trying to make you over in their image.. or in the image the pros 'see for your own good'.. well, i felt unacceptable the whole way through.. and my self-doubts were only realized and pointed out officially every week as if i didn't already notice them.. it did more harm than good because i once again attached to someone who would never be there for me.. i would never be 'viable' in their eyes.. i was destined for failure.. beware.. know what you are embarking on.. ghost
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Post by ghost on Oct 3, 2007 12:29:42 GMT -5
i just had to run my son to class.. had some more thoughts on this though..
it's not that i was totally unflexible either.. i took some of the advice i was given and left some.. raised as i was, i am not the kind of person likely to put myself in the hands of others.. i am used to being on my own in a way, knowing no one can save me.. i have to live with my own decisions.. to suddenly allow someone else to act as an authority over me was kinda laughable.. i mean even my parents never tried that on me.. i read.. i'm not exactly an idiot.. so i don't just swallow what i'm told without questioning sources and motives.. anyway.. it wasn't for naught.. at least now i'm in touch with my anger. ..
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